Dan ([info]malbec) wrote,
@ 2004-01-14 14:49:00
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Current mood: sad

UMS Conversations
When I helped build it I was so proud of what we'd done. We'd made something that people could use to help themselves and those around them, or just chat if that's what they wanted...

...In a year and a half it's become a cesspit of rightwing ignorance and fear. I'm officially throwing in the towel. I've turned off my daily email update alert. I shall never return to it again.

Funny isn't it how something you can be so proud of turns out to be something you end up being totally ashamed of. I have helped give a voice to people that think all immigrants should 'fuck off home', that every single Muslim is a 'suicide bomber', the war in Iraq was 'exciting to watch as the bombs came raining down' and that Kilroy is 'a English hero'.

I know I should fight these people. I know it's weak of me to run. But I've hardly slept a wink in the last week because of what they've all been saying. I lie awake and despair.

The UMS Conversations I tried to create is dead.


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respect for trying to engage people
(Anonymous)
2004-01-14 07:29 am UTC (link)
Hey Dan - Lee from Headshift here - been following your comments on UMSC and just wanted to say respec' for trying. The same thing happened to our Brixton online forums years ago which was why they had to be closed down.

Anyway, we've moved on a lot since we last spoke and if you are in the area I'd love 4 u to drop by, have a drink and meet our team some time.

Take it easy....

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[info]malbec
2004-01-14 07:36 am UTC (link)
It's such a shame that when you give people a nice new shiney thing to play with all they seem to want to do with it is hit each other over the head with the damn thing. I like to think that we as a species have transended our tribal genetic programming but I suspect that we haven't. :-(

I'm always up for drinkies! You guys are still down in Tower Hill right?

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(Anonymous)
2004-01-14 07:49 am UTC (link)
aye - let's meet up and throw Powerbooks at each other ;-)

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[info]malbec
2004-01-14 08:02 am UTC (link)
LMAO! ;-)

I have Apple envy. I only have an iPod, but size doesn't matter, right?! (It's what I keep telling myself) ;-)

I'll email you at your info@ address so that you've got me email etc. :-)

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[info]bluebob
2004-01-14 08:01 am UTC (link)
Sorry to hear its shattered your faith in mankind. If your loosing sleep over it it can't be a good thing.

Remember though that freedom of speech means everyone is free to express an opinion no matter what, and if you lived in a fundamentalist country you would be told what opinion to have.

Also remember that not everyone is bad, and only an idiot thinks that because he shouts the loudest he is right.

:)

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[info]malbec
2004-01-14 08:08 am UTC (link)
I'm all for free speech. I wouldn't want to take away people's right to offend. Definatly not. I'm just disapointed at the amount of people that use that freedom be negative.

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[info]bluebob
2004-01-14 08:15 am UTC (link)
Working a lot in the 'community' as I do now, I have realised British people like to complain.

Given the chance to express an opinion it will more often that not be a negative, and if asked if they would like something nice and new, they will want to stick with what they have even if its shit, or if they are older, go back to things as they were when they were younger.

People are what they are.

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(Anonymous)
2004-01-14 09:44 am UTC (link)
I guess the problem is that people like that just have louder voices and like to hear them more than 'sane' people. They feel the need to shout their dumb thoughts while others don't feel the need to go on and on. I like to think they make a noise out of proportion with their numbers, and I hope I'm right.

Anyway, don't let it get you down mate - time to move on and leave the idiots to it. You did good!

Phil G

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(Anonymous)
2004-01-14 09:46 am UTC (link)
Phil's right - there's a silent majority of people who don't say much on the issue and it is the loudmouthed complainers who dominate forums such as UMSC

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What have we learned?
(Anonymous)
2004-01-15 01:40 am UTC (link)
Hi - Tom Steinberg here from mySociety.org. I was saddened to read what you've said, but I think it is crucially important that the people closest to this highly important innovation try to document what did and didn't work.

As a policy analyst, the tools which connect people who don't know each other are of significantly more potential social value than those which reinforce already strong social bonds - this is all part of Social Capital theory. I don't think I've ever seen a system as potentially powerful for doing this as UMC, so it is really important to learn from this. Can you tell us more, and what you think might be required to make this or another such system work?

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[info]malbec
2004-01-15 01:58 am UTC (link)
Now is probably not the best time to ask me this as I'm still on a bit of a downer about it all and I'm likey to say something like "It'd all work fine if you got rid of the users"...

I've thought about this a bit recently while jumping from communities within Live Journal to UMSC. I suspect the lack of accountability in UMSC (i.e. at the very least the only thing that someone knows about you is your alias and your view point) has made it so that the nutters that usually bite their tounge and doing voice their extreme views come out of the wood work. They're a strange lot, that's for sure. There was one guy that used to post nice, supportive and socially aware stuff into the forum and then on another account he'd started, used to cut and paste the most out rageous diatribes off of very rightwing websites!

You've also got the single issue people. It was the anti-immigration lot that made me leave. For a community that's supposed to be geographically based the same old faces would pop up all love the country, usually in a heard. One would appear, then a few more, until the whole gang would be having exactly the same conversation with each other that they were having on 5 concurrent threads. "bla bla bla I'm a foreigner in my own country. All Muslims want me dead bla bla bla". Bah!

Anyway, I'm rambling as usual. Back to the original point. Accountability. I suspect there are just as many people on LJ that have the extreme views that the vocal people of UMSC had. Okay, these systems are both different and have different goals in mind, but the communities (like <lj community="livejournal_uk") follow the same underlying concept (throw them all together and see what happens). Here there is accountability. Here you have a journal/blog/diary where you write about you. Where your 'friends' ready about you. I suspect that this makes people bite their tounge a fair bit. Maybe this isn't the answer for having all sides of a debate represented but it keeps it a lot more civil. Here, if you want to talk to live minded people about something be it good or bad, you snap off a bit of the server space and make your own community. UMSC was one be sprawl where people collided because there was nothing to keep them apart... And funnily enuff, that's what I liked so much about it. Anyway, I've lost focus again...

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(Anonymous)
2004-01-15 10:39 am UTC (link)
I'm guessing that part of the problem these days is that UMS' new owners don't have the resources (or desire?) to develop, or even maintain, UMSC properly. Such places require tending, and if no one's around to watch then the lunatics take over the asylum. I expect there were plans to develop user-based moderation which would have created more of a feeling of ownership, rather than it being a free-for-all. But I guess that's not going to happen.

Also, I think traffic is drastically down - last time I looked there was little recent within 10 miles of Bristol, for example. If that's the case then I guess it's only the most persistent people, who like talking to themselves, who will be left. ie, the idiots who are left there.

So, basically, UMSC in itself didn't fail - it's more that no one is trying to make it succeed these days.

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(Anonymous)
2004-01-15 10:40 am UTC (link)
Sorry, that was me, Phil G posting again. Darn anonymousness!

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[info]malbec
2004-01-15 02:58 pm UTC (link)
Damn you. Get an account here if only for posting to my journal! ;-)

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Utilize peer moderation
(Anonymous)
2004-01-24 03:47 pm UTC (link)
Hello,

This is Steve Magruder from Democracy 2.0 (www.democracy2.org). Recently, on my nascent board for discussing practical e-democracy and direct democracy efforts (discuss.democracy2.org), I installed a Slashdot-style peer moderation system. It allows all members to rate each others' posts +1 or -1 with a disposition such as "Insightful" or "Off-topic". Soon I will also install updates for users to not see posts that fall below a set rating threshold. Ultimately, I hope for the quality of messages to rise without too much of a need for top-down moderation, although the board is designed to accommodate that as well. I've specifically reserved top-down moderation for especially insidious posts, such as those containing spam, vulgarity, personal attacks, illegal things, etc.

As for the far-right elements in your board, I would say--You don't have to agree with them, but in a democracy, they must be accommodated, as all people with all views must be accommodated. But that thought doesn't negate the need for strong peer and top-down moderation. Consider how representative bodies work--they aren't free-for-alls, but instead utilize strict parliamentary rules. Hopefully, we'll eventually see e-democracy software developed that captures the best elements of a free-for-all with the best elements of parliamentary proceedings.

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